Saturday, July 30, 2005

Southern Baptists too Calvinist? & Other News...


Personal Update: I am still extremely too busy to unfortunately write much of substance but I decided to do some reporting of substance. I found a couple interesting finds in the Blogosphere that I wanted to share.

I found out about 2 groups in the Southern Baptist Convention. Its seems like its the Calvinists and anti-Calvinist. I found a number of interesting links on this from Dr. James White's Apologetics Blog. It seems like this particular group is a reaction to the SBC getting more Reformed. I went to their website and was delighted to see that they had many links to their enimies the SBC Calvinists. I was glad to check out the resource the provide me with about groups in SBC who are working to make the SBC more Reformed. The link to their minstry is here. This is probably a good read for any Reformed Baptist not necessilarly just Southern Baptists. The debate is fun for me to watch because as you all know I am proud Southern Baptist and also very Reformed. Also interesting because I am going (in under 2weeks) to a Seminary that has been called the the Southern Baptist's "Outpost of Calvinism" by a certain speaker in our convention(and he did not mean it as a compliment). So here is a fun question to ponder is there room for Calvinists and the anti-Calvinists in the SBC or will "Calvinism divide the SBC" as I heard one alarmist say. All of the SBC has the same confessional statement the Baptist Faith & Message .Heres a thought does the Baptist Faith & Message support a particular side? So anyway leave you thoughts on Southern Baptists and Calvinism. Do you think we are too Calvinist? Or not Calvinist enough (My first reaction is there no such thing as too Calvinist..unless you a hyper Calvinist..) Or do you think all the Calvinists and non Calvinist we will able to coexist peacefully..(What I think is funny is some of the non Calvinst Southern Baptist I've talked to are at least 3 pt-4.5pt Calvinist and don't admit it.)

In other news while I busy linking other blogs I going to link to Steve Camp's recent blog post on Senator Frist deciding to support a bill to expand federal financing for embryonic stem cell research. I read the article and was outraged!I lost any respect for the guy who is trying to get close with evangelicals for political power but and not out of conviction. It forced me to get closer to Steve Camp's position on "Evangelical CoBiligerence" . Although for the record I still disagree with stance on "Evangelical CoBiligernce" because I believe we need to be involved fighting evil in all ways possible which is not the same thing trying to legislate regenerate behavior on the lost. Thats not the issue. I see Evangelical engagement as doing that. It wouldn't make sense to say "Hey Nazi Germany was unsaved, so we should expect that behavior out of them so we should not try to inforce Christian morality on them." If we can oppose evil politcally then do it! Of course not neglecting the primary issue of the spititual condition which is the root of the problem.(I do confess I made a straw man out of the ECB arguement but I am trying to make a point) But don't get me wrong I am very concerned about the mingling of Christianity and Politics because politics is a very dirty business and we don't need to stain our spotless Savior with the dirtiness of politics. See my post on the first Justice Sunday to see more of my concern on the issue. All this to say I believe there is a place for Christians to be engaged in politcs but we have to be careful of people like Frist who want to politically use us without representing us. Oh by the way reading the comments to the post I was happy to see that Camp still appreciates Mohler even though he disagrees with him. I was happy to see this because I was worried that he might be Mohler basher.

Well, since I seem to be busy pointing you to other blogs I might as well keep going. Check out a couple of Phil Johnson's recent posts at PyroManiac . I throughly enjoyed his comments on the problems with being Fad Driven as well as his comments on Time's list of 25 Most Influential Evangelicals. And since blogspotting is nolonger a fad but a classic tradition maybe I'll get lucky and get blogspotted. Two of my freinds Dave Mullins and Curtis Richardson have already been blogspotted by Phil. If anyone is wondering...this is a shameless attempt to get blogspotted...

Anyway enjoy all the links and sometime I will return my deep theological and Biblical writtings in a break from my packing to go to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary .

5 Comments:

At 8:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

John ~
This morning, I noticed that Phil Johnson's "page" includdes a link to "Blogs linked here". Alas, no reference to yours (at the time, at least).

I appreciate your assertion "[i]f we can oppose evil politically then do it!" and your admonition "about the mingling of Christianity and Politics".
Regarding Camp(i), he contends that he highly regards John MacArthur also, yet he continuously denegragtes seminaries (not Masters), profiting from the sale of the Word of God, et al. Go figure!

A major concern of mine regarding Steve is his proclivity to attack the motives of those whose political activism he so despises.
Upon reading the BaptistFire Chicken Little alarmism ("Calvinists want to take over your Southern Baptist church), I realized that what disgusted me most was what I ASSume to be the motive of those like-minded (the anti-Reformed). Indeed, I readily "chalk up" their biblical ignorance to the facts that "the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction", Matt. 5:13 (HCSB), and "the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually". 1 Cor. 2:14 (HCSB).

I acknowledge that I cannot know the motives of the anti-Reformed. At the same time, I cannot think of a better explanation why Reformed theology is so offensive to them than that it threatens their worldly measurements of "success" -- more and more "converts" (a million baptisms!) and the concomitant effect on the coffers.

I'm sure that you've read Pastor Mullins' "post" regarding being Reformed and being an evangelist.
No evidence exists to even suggest that any of the hundreds of members of his (my) church have a greater passion for evangelism than he does and/or than I do. Ironic, is it not, that two Reformed theology adherents would be most sin cera (without wax) (sincere!) about reaching the lost?!

As I've commented to other "posts" of his, it is futile, indeed counterproductive to any local church, to unrelentingly pack the pews with souls on the broad road who have been manipulated by a anthropocentric (man-centered) appeal to "ask Jesus in your heart", and then baptize on such basis! The result of such is that koinonia is precluded (again, munching donuts while discussing one's golf game is not fellowship!), and despite the fact that the Word is preached, those on the narrow way and in need of koinonia will be prone to search for it elsewhere.

 
At 11:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really ought to review my comments before I "click" PUBLISH(viz. "includdes"). As was the case with all of Alanis Morrisette's rhetorical questions, it really is NOT ironic that Reformed theology adherents would be fervent in evangelism. Indeed, Reformed theology includes the indispensable doctrine regarding which our Lord must have removed the veil such that one may be passionate about reaching the lost: Total Depravity. Are Johnny, Adrian, Paige, et al., moved with compassion or motivated by numbers (including, perhaps especially, those adjacent to dollar signs)? Maybe it's both. Maybe it's the former. As for me, may it never be the latter!

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger John said...

Hey Jim,
Thanks for the comments. Sorry it took me a while to respond I just returned from a Service Project Mission Trip with my youth!

First a big thank you agreeing with me on what I said about Steve Camp. He buggs me because he is so right on with some things and far too extreme on others(like seminary and Evangelical political activism)I stongly agree with your concern with Steve on is attacks on evangelical political activism. Its good to point out harm that it could do but the way he goes about just seems very much like he is on the attack when it comes to some of his brothers in Christ. I almost want to call it "Cobiligerence on his so called 'ECB'"I guess making him a CECBer.

Definately good thought on the whole anti-Calvinist/Calvinist thing going on in the SBC. Its amazing how the anitCalvinist seem to be both historically and Biblical ignorant. As noted else where some of the greatest Evangelist have been Reformed. Take the Great Awakening one of the most amazingly evangelistic time ever. Who did God decided to use in it? A very Reformed Pastor Jonathan Edwards. I stongly agree with what you said about it is counterproductive to pack your pews with people who "asked Jesus into their heart" but do not have the Holy Spirit living in them. I think that is what so many churches are so dead! Even when they have people the reality is that they are spiritually dead. I think that helps explain the 20-80 gaps in most churchs (that the same 20% of the congregation do 80% of the work)

Anyway thanks for the excellent comments! I appreciate your good thoughts.
-John

 
At 7:26 PM, Blogger John said...

Abbey,
Thanks for the post and your love. Its been a joy serving you and the church. Yep our camp trip/ Service Mission Trip to Skyview was awesome! I am so glad you came. I enjoyed watching you and the rest of the youth serve Jesus in that unique setting. Abbey I am sad too that I will be leaving you guys. But I am very certain God has decided to take me to Seminary. I being obediant to his calling and direction in my life. But you and the church will be dearly missed! You will always be in my prayers! Abbey thanks so much for your encouraging comments it means so much to me and a great blessing Abbey I will be praying for you. Stay close our Savior and allow him to lead you, guide you and direct you in all you do! Abbey, stay serious in your walk with him and you will change the world for him as you let Christ live through you!
Phil 1:3 & Josh 1:8


P.S. Abbey, I am your brother in a way that goes deeper than blood. We are children of the King of Kings. You are my sister in Christ. and I am your brother in Christ!
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ Gal 3:26
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we areā€¦
1 John 3:2
P.P.S
I will visit I definitely love my family here in Aurora!

 
At 7:32 PM, Blogger John said...

oops the correct scripture reference for the last verse is 1 John 3:1

 

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